deathding This is really well done, and counter-claims a lot of what I had to say! Though I still have some things on my mind that I'd love to take out here. I'd also love to discuss my reasoning for time stoppers not ALWAYS winning to non-time stoppers, but that's for later, haha. For one, in our Hangout, you asked the following: "So, do you think that if something can move from any given point in space to another in absolutely no time at all (not warping there, moving through every point in between, over the course of 0 units of time), it would be fair to call the speed of that thing infinite?" It ALL depends on whether or not you want to interpret that statement as the Taj Mahal of this whole premise. Again, Time Stopping isn't possible anyway, but like you said, that's not the point of this discussion. The point is whether or not stopping time would equal infinite speed, and therefore, infinite force. It's honestly very strange, because mathematically speaking, everything you stated above has no flaws from what I can gather in the article, with the exception of one massive claim....But time stopping is a very unique and unusual case for this sort of thing. My main claim that I will try and drive home is that the Speed formula is irrelevant because we literally cannot calculate speed. Undefined/immeasurable is not the same as infinite, but allow me to explain myself here. Math being imaginary at times might apply here. Again, stopping time, while seemingly logically infinite speed, isn't a normal hard-defined infinite speed in "normal" circumstances. Stopping time would also put a halt to physics as well, as time itself dictates physics. Not to mention that Time, in its essence and of its nature, is incredibly difficult to describe what it actually is. One could argue that physics are completely irrelevant as well because of all this. Matter of fact, there's a great thread online that discusses that whole topic. Source: https://www.thehelper.net/threads/if-you-could-stop-time-what-happens-to-physics.149650/ Another interesting point is that by the definition of infinite speed, ANYTHING with an infinite speed would be able to move in stopped time. This is specifically stated by the VS Battles wiki: "Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count.)" Source: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Speed As you can see on that page, there are even things above infinite speed. Those being, immeasurable, and irrelevant. Infinite time does not equal immeasurable, or undefined, speed. Speed equals distance over time. Anything divided by zero is undefined, or immeasurable, not infinite. This is huge. Also, totally random but very interesting, it is stated by again VS Battles that anyone who can stop time would be able to move in the stopped time of others. Source: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Stop The problem with your premise is that immeasurable or undefined speed does not equal infinite, as well as time stop being very difficult to define and measure as a case of its own. As I mentioned earlier, anyone with infinite speed would be able to move in stopped time anyway. And when we literally cannot calculate the speed of something in such a unique premise as frozen time, the charts totally crash. That Speed page on VS Battles really seals the deal. As for the equation of force itself now that we know calculating speed in frozen time is impossible to measure, Force equals mass times acceleration. I know you're sick of hearing this, but let's imagine I'm Shadow the Hedgehog. Having disproved simply stopping time as infinite speed, the physics go all over the place, but as we've seen from the media of time-stopping users, the characters are still limited by their inherent and physical characteristics. A rat that could run one mile an hour would still only be able to run one mile an hour. A super-powered dark hedgehog with Chaos powers that can move faster than light would still only be able to move faster than light. There is no changing what a character is already capable of. Thus, Force equaling Mass times Acceleration, nothing changes. Since time itself is immeasurable, and we cannot dictate speed at all, we have to assume the character is still bound by their natural limits. Regarding Speed equaling Distance over Time, since we cannot dictate time at all, again, the Time part of the equation is obsolete. Immeasurable Speed, as cited once again by the VS Battles Speed page, is defined as: "Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed." So what happens when you divide something by an immeasurable calculation? Nothing. The equation crashes and it's not applicable, as the above paragraph says. The speed formula is completely irrelevant here because it simply cannot be applied. And I think that's where I'll end it for now, though now I'd like to continue this by giving my opinion on why Time Stopping users are never the immediate victor, so long as certain standards are met. I'll comment that below, but I hope you see what I do in this message, as this is ultimately what we're debating over. EDITS: I made a few extra points and erased any instances of me saying that time stopping would mean infinite speed. I was thinking about this along the way via your information and my sources, so if you see this edit, then you're likely reading the best revision of this post possible. Also, just to clarify one thing. You're probably thinking that immeasurable speed, being higher than infinite, would still be able to obliterate anything, not changing your argument. However, in undefined circumstances, as I said earlier, the Speed formula literally cannot be applied.

deathding Now onto the more fun part, IMO. How to counter a character that is capable of freezing the very essence of time itself. There's a number of ways to do this, so let's break it down. The first counter would be the simplest, to prevent the character from freezing time in the first place. Most characters, before freezing time, have a sort of start-up lag before time actually freezes. Think Chaos Control, or Mega Man X's Dark Hold. Therefore, it's safe to say in these rather common circumstances that anyone with a higher speed rating than....Let's go with High Hypersonic, would be able to reach the opponent from any reasonable distance before the opposing character would activate their time stopping abilities. Sourcing the Speed page of VS Battles again because it is just that damn useful: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Speed Assuming there isn't a start-up lag to the time stopping, this is where it gets tricky. You have to have a very high travel speed and reaction time to reach the opponent before they freeze time and proceed to slaughter-fuck the opposing force. If the time stopper knows ahead of time that he's going to be blitzed momentarily and has at least moderately efficient time to react to the fast character, then the time stopper wins. Otherwise, the fast character wins. In a normal battle environment, on the countdown of three or whatever before the fight would engage, it's logical to assume that the time stopper would always win provided the opponent has a lower speed threshold then....Let's go with Faster Than Light Plus. Any higher, though, and the fast character, even with no time start-up and nigh-perfect reaction time, wouldn't be able to react to a character that's faster than most characters faster than light itself, wouldn't you agree? As I mentioned in the last message as well, anything that has Infinite Speed or above would be unaffected by time stopping, since infinite speed is defined by VS Battles as being able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still. So Argument #1: If the character has a speed higher than an estimate of Relativistic (10-50% Speed of Light), then on average, they will win, depending on if the opponent has no start-up lag for their time freezing hax. Attack, Combat, Reaction, Travel, and Flight Speed all matter greatly when you're against a character that can freeze time, but it can most certainly be done. My Source for a lot of the information in Argument #1 above: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/speedster-infinite-speed-vs-time-manipulator-time--1800109/ The next argument is a really fucking cool one, that being, the wonderful power of Toon Force. Source: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Toon_Force Toon Force is defined as reality warping in a comedic fashion to gain a haxy advantage in the world of hypothetical fights. Thus, it is entirely possible that a character possessing this trait would be able to get out of (or flat out ignore) the effects of time stopping. Maybe have them surround themselves in a balloon where time is still passing for them, or maybe they can drill a hole in the fabric of frozen time with a plastic fork to cancel out the effects. Toon Force is only limited by your very own imagination. Argument #2: Toon Force, or cartoon physics, are busted as fuck. Don't fuck with a cartoon character in a fight. My next argument is a really cool one, albeit situational and really only for one character. A character from Touhou named Reimu Hakurei (who can do a plethora of haxy shit, such as spatial manipulation, precognition, etc) has an ability called Fantasy Nature that literally allows her to float away from existence, becoming untouchable and completely intangible by normal means. Because of the fact that she can literally go out of existence, it's safe to say that she would be unaffected by the freezing of time. Thus, she would ultimately win every fight against a time stopping character. Source: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Reimu_Hakurei Argument #3: Fantasy Nature is busted, and man, I LOVE the VS Battles wiki. Soul Manipulation, also referred to as Overshadowing in the Danny Phantom cartoon, is another technique that could work, but as with Argument #1, it all depends on if the character is fast enough or able to ignore the effects of the very freezing of time itself on whether or not they'd be able to pull it off. This applies for many other broken traits, as a quick time stopper is honestly one of the most terrifying opponents one can face should they not be equipped to be capable of countering it efficiently and pragmatically. Another argument is simply being at least nigh-omnipresent, or even just resistant to time-stopping in general. Like you said, even a controller of time wouldn't be able to do shit to a 1-A God-Tier character like Akuto Sai or The Law Of Identity. Resistance or immunity to any given haxy ability is also something that completely shuts down a time user. Think they don't exist? Think again. Source: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Resistance Source #2: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Omnipotence So overall, while time stopping characters are certainly haxy and incredibly potent fighters, there's a lot more counters to it than you may think. I could go on and on, listing every tactic that would shut a time-freezer down, but I think you get the point by now. I'd suggest you explore the different abilities that the world of fiction has over at VS Battles, because the shit gets really interesting, and opens up a whole new world that is nothing like Legi's simple way of thinking "This is totally unstoppable, period." (I know, I'm giving his spelling and grammar too much credit. XD) Even the most seemingly broken characters, like Alien X from Ben 10 or Super Shadow the fucking Hedgehog, can still be taken down with other means. You don't even have to be omnipotent or omnipresent or whatever, just remember that even the most broken abilities have dedicated and numerous counters in a wide variety. The only unconquerable abilities I'd say would be the 3 Omni's. Those being, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience. If two characters of that level fought, it would be a shit show of manipulating dimensions, the very future, and would likely end in either existence itself blowing up and ceasing to nothing, or a painfully psycho stalemate. Even nigh-Omniwhatever would be enough to checkmate a time-stopper. This was all really fun to discuss! I'll have to thank you when we speak tonight, because I've learned so much from this debate. Also, I cannot stress this enough. I'm not sponsoring them, and I tend to fanboy with things I really like, but the VS Battles wiki is spectacular, and can act as a serious information injection for fun hypothetical scenarios akin to this. It's been fun mate, I'll see ya tonight!