Yes, both of them put themselves before others, but the problem with Elsa, is Anna says right in front of her what she's done, and she doesn't care, at all. She never apologizes in the end, they make it look like it was Anna's fault! She not only puts her stupid fear above others, but then she can't even confess up to doing it in the end. She also puts more people's lives in danger than Ariel does, then happily walks along in Let it Go like nothing happened.

I think Ariel is selfish too. She puts herself before others and doesn't think about others, just herself. She forces others into things, and almost gets a lot of people hurt as well.

Misguided though she is, Elsa shut herself away from her sister and her subjects for most of her life because she didn't want to hurt them, even though she wanted to spend time with them. She put what she thought was their safety before her own desires.

Ariel doesn't control her impulses for anyone or anything. She feels like exploring a sunken ship? She doesn't even bother trying to remember Sebastian's concert (not the first time) and ignores Flounder's cries of fear and distress. She feels like going to the surface or the Sea Witch? She'll ignore her father's law and Sebastian's warning. Sebastian says, "I hope you appreciate what I go through for you, young lady" after he nearly DIES from agreeing to stay on land and help her woo the prince against his better judgment and knowing he could get in trouble with her father? She just pats his head and walks away. Ariel doesn't let a little thing like other people's fears, warnings, distress, or even danger distract her from getting what she wants when she wants it.

I don't think either is truly selfish. Elsa is illogical and makes decisions based on fear. Ariel is impulsive, somewhat immature and was manipulated and pressured at a low emotional state.

Only on some degrees.

Okay, I'm getting tired of this Elsa is selfish thing. I get that she didn't apologize, but in the end of the day the reason why she shut herself was to protect others. She may have done some little so called selfish things here and there but calling her selfish for that is completely ignoring a huge thing about her that makes her not selfish. Seriously, people in this club make Elsa out to be a villain...

Anyway, the thing about this question is one made very selfish decisions and the other is not selfish at all. Ariel is a very obvious answer.

Must we? Elsa is SELFISH in my opinion. You can't shout these words at the top of your voice:

I don't care
What they're going to say
Let the storm rage on,
The cold never bothered me anyway!

or these words:


Here I stand
In the light of day
Let the storm rage on,
The cold never bothered me anyway!


...and proclaim how compassionate Elsa is. She is not compassionate.

Elsa DOESN'T CARE that she froze Arendelle!!!! She even freezes her own sister because she gets too angry!!!! ( Ariel's foolishness impacted her and her father for the most part, because they had the actual FIGHT. Ariel did nothing to her own sisters. And Ariel wasn't the one with the power to turn her father into a polyp!!!!) You can lather it on whichever way you want to put it--- but Elsa is cutthroat. She loves her sister so much she sends a freaking snow monster after Anna to chase her away. If it weren't for Elsa literally hitting her with ice, Anna wouldn't have had to "die." Yes, Elsa LOVES people, and is selfless..... NOT.

^What are you even talking about? Elsa doesn't know she has frozen the land until Anna tells her. And she is obviously and undoubtedly distressed and frightened when she sees she has hit Anna with an icy blast. When she learns that she has frozen her sister's heart and that she has supposedly died, she is despaired and falls to the ground, not caring that she is a vulnerable position. And after Anna sacrifices herself, she softly caress her icy face and sobs over her body.

I won't excuse sending Marshmallow after Anna. Elsa thinks the worst monster/danger is herself, so it's better to keep her sister away at any lengths. That was irrational of her and that's how her parents raised her to think. Don't blame her for hitting Anna with ice: it was an accident. Elsa doesn't hate people either. She doesn't have any people skills and is somewhat anti-social, but that's what you get from limited human contact for several years (unless you're the embodiment of the Sun).

Oh, and about fhe lyrics you quoted: what is wrong with embracing yourself, without cattering to what society expects of you? Without unfair, illogical rules and constraints that limit you?

Elsa has no compassion for her sister. She only sees her fears, and when confronted with the consequences of her actions, Elsa does nothing but cower. Anna is the one who takes the stand for confronting Hans. Elsa doesn't. Elsa is cowardly and selfish.

If we use the excuse that Elsa does not KNOW the extent of her powers (that she froze Arendelle)--- then by that logic Ariel could not possibly know how skillful and deep Ursula's deal was. Ariel knew Ursula was bad, but she did not know the extent of how bad. We give Elsa a BREAK, but we cut Ariel NO SLACK AT ALL. I'm sick of the hypocrisy, here. BOTH girls are either ignorant of the consequences of their actions, or they aren't. Which is it? If you won't cut Ariel any slack, I won't cut Elsa any slack. That's how it is.

As for the lyrics, Howard Ashman was gay. He wrote the lyrics for "Part of Your World," about feeling so strongly that prejudice was wrong, and seeking to break the chains and constraints that surrounded you. So the LGBT argument for LIG being something novel is moot.

^That comment made no sense. You saying that other people's comments are hypocritical is hypocritical in itself. You mentions all the bad things Elsa does, but nothing from Ariel, and somehow everyone but you is somehow biased. Don't make proclaims that these two girls are equal and then completely undermine what you are saying. Gus said in his original message that neither girls in his opinion are selfish, he was just defending Elsa because you were being rude and your comment made no sense whats so ever. Really 8804, you should learn how to treat people with respect or just leave the club in general. For someone who hates, "mean" characters, you are extremely rude and harsh with everyone on this site.

^^ Right. I'm the one who doesn't respect people's opinions on Elsa? Okay. I think I see the pattern emerging here. Everyone can proclaim their bias that Ariel is a bad person with numerous FLAWS ALL THE TIME, but no one can say Elsa has any FLAWS? That's ridiculous! Gus defended his opinion. I defended mine. End of story. I already told you to stop labeling me a horrible person, Sk8er_grl. It doesn't look good on you.

@8804 ELSA IS NOT COMPASSIONATE! ELSA IS NOT SELFLESS! ELSA DOESN'T LOVE PEOPLE! WHY WOULD ANYONE SAY SHE DOES, THEY ARE WRONG! ~8804 Everything you said 8804 is 100% opinion based, yet you act like everything you said is a fact and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. I find Elsa selfless and that she generally cares for people, deal with it and move on with your life. If you feel differently, good for you, but stop acting like your opinions are facts. I'm trying to respect your opinions and that you have different options on the subject, but every comment I've seen you type on this club is extremely rude, angry, makes you come off as stupid, and you look extremely egocentric and arrogant. Every comment from you makes me rub my head in concern. Also, cut it with the exclamation marks, they make you look like a two year old who is just learning how to type.

Let's so through the course of the movie TLM, shall we? We start off seeing Ariel right away knowing the only information about her...missing the concert. Boom, right off the bat Ariel already comes off as bratty, selfish, and dismissive of anything her parents ask of her. Triton has an extremely huge event planned and asks ONE thing from his daughter, and she misses it because Ariel is to busy caring about herself and no one else. And no, this wasn't just because she forgot, Sebastian SAYS that Ariel missing the concert wasn't a first time offense and she has done it countless times in the past. What is Ariel doing instead on this? She is exploring a ship. In this scene, Ariel not only takes Flounder into an unknown area she doesn't proceed to check if safe or not or see if actual sharks are in the area as she so PROUDLY proclaims they aren't, but also, Flounder was seen practically cowering in a corner not wanting to explore the ship. Oh, what does Ariel do?! She teases Flounder and acts like his fears are a joke. "You aren't getting cold fins now, are you?" Yes Ariel, because just because YOU are brave means everybody has to be also! (/Sarcasm) Ariel the proceeds teasing him by saying Flounder can stay and watch for sharks when she knows that was his fear. And, what do you know? Sharks show up! Ariel doesn't bother making sure if her statements are true and pretends to be hot stuff with everyone. Flounder just passes off almost dying like no big deal and forgives his, "friend" (Air quotes because Ariel doesn't treat Flounder like a friend, more like her slave) After this Ariel FINALLY remembers about the concert. What does Ariel do? She lies directly at her father's face and says, "I just forgot!" NO Ariel, you didn't just forget. Ariel has missed the concert as Sebastian says countless times before.

ARIEL GOT IN A FIGHT WITH HER FATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO IT WAS OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And add about a thousand exclamation marks on that) ~8804. 8804, can I just say how extremely biased I think you are? If Ariel impulsively going to a sea-witch out of spite for her father with no for-thought about the subject and giving away her voice without even thinking of the consequences (All reasons I find selfish, because Ariel didn't decide to go for her dream until after her father pissed her off and Ariel whined and cried about such a stupid reason over dramatically) then why is it that Elsa isn't excused when Elsa was also in a fight with her sister? At least what Elsa did was an accident, Ariel didn't accidentally swim to Ursula's grotto. And before Triton destroyed her stuff, Ariel was being incredibly bratty saying she doesn't care what her father says and spitting out random non-sense, before Anna gave Elsa the news Elsa was being extremely calm and sweet with Anna.

ARIEL'S ACTIONS DON'T AFFECT HER SISTER! ~8804

Yes, but Elsa's actions don't effect her parents. It's a two way street. Did you not see the scene where Elsa backs away from her parents out of fear of hurting them? I didn't see Ariel ever do the same. You probably don't remember the scene though, because it seems like you haven't seen the movie in a LONG TIME.

ARIEL'S ACTIONS DON'T TURN HER FATHER INTO A POYLP!!! ~8804
No, Ariel didn't turn her father into a polyp, but her constant disregard of authority and being incapable of looking past her own nose brought her where she is. As soon as Ariel got to the layer, a sea of polyps were right in from of her! What does she do? She keeps swimming. Don't say that she didn't know this would happen to her (The oh-so perfect and untouchable child Ariel is couldn't think that would happen for her) Because during poor unfortunate souls, Ursula gives a visual representation of what would happen if she didn't pay the price.

And about the snow monster and Elsa thing, Elsa made him just so the snow monster could make her sister go away so she doesn't hurt them, Anna throwing the snowball at the monster is what caused the chaotic scene. Even when marshmallow grabs Anna and Kristoff, he doesn't harm them, just gets rid of them. See my point?

Elsa has no compassion for her sister. She only sees her fears, and when confronted with the consequences of her actions, Elsa does nothing but cower. Anna is the one who takes the stand for confronting Hans. Elsa doesn't. Elsa is cowardly and selfish.

Elsa falls to the ground, offering no resistance to Hans - she is willing to face the consequences of freezing Anna (though I think it's unfair, since it was an accident, but moving on). When Anna comfronts Elsa about freezing the kingdom, Elsa do not face the consequences of her actions, because she doesn't know how to stop the winter. Yes, it would have beem more sensible if she had worked with her sister and tried to find a solution, but she wasn't raised this way. Her parents taught her to think she is a monster who must repress her dangerous, "evil" powers and can't be a part of society, even if it means living a lie and being in constant fear.

If we use the excuse that Elsa does not KNOW the extent of her powers (that she froze Arendelle)--- then by that logic Ariel could not possibly know how skillful and deep Ursula's deal was. Ariel knew Ursula was bad, but she did not know the extent of how bad. We give Elsa a BREAK, but we cut Ariel NO SLACK AT ALL. I'm sick of the hypocrisy, here. BOTH girls are either ignorant of the consequences of their actions, or they aren't. Which is it? If you won't cut Ariel any slack, I won't cut Elsa any slack. That's how it is.

As for the lyrics, Howard Ashman was gay. He wrote the lyrics for "Part of Your World," about feeling so strongly that prejudice was wrong, and seeking to break the chains and constraints that surrounded you. So the LGBT argument for LIG being something novel is moot.

Why are you bringing up Ariel? Where did I mention her, besides my first comment, where I made it clear that I find neither truly selfish? Where did you get the idea that I "won't cut Ariel any slack". Honestly, I've lost count of how many times I've jumped to her defense. Ask Tygers_Eye. Besides, Ursula being a wicked witch whose goal is to ursup Triton's righful throne has nothing to do with the reason some people find her selfish. Their arguments are centered on the fact that Ariel left her family behind, doesn't attend her debut concert and didn't apologize for her mistakes in the end.

Again, why in heavens are you mentioning Howard Ashman and his sexuality?? It appears to me that you want to shift the focus to your preference of Ariel, which has nothing to do with the debate I started. And again, where did I mention LGBT?? Puh-lease, actually reply to my arguments instead of making up things.

I have many problems with Elsa but her being selfish isn't one of them

@leftthetrain and silverrose1991 agree with everything both of you typed. Well said ;)

@8804 I wouldn't label you as a horrible person if you proved me differently in all fairness. Whenever I have tried being nice with you you go again and be extremely rude with me and a bunch of other people on fanpop. Elsa's flaws are pointed out all the time, really, WHERE have you been on fanpop? Exactly what I mean when I say Elsa haters pretend she gets no hate. It's not, "ridiculous" because it's frankly, not true. None of your points on Elsa make any sense and they were all completely undermined by your other statements, and that is why people are defending Elsa. I agree with what silverrose said, 8804. You completely dodge other people's questions and comments because you have nothing to say on the subject and you still somehow want to prove you are right, which really only ends up working in your disfavor.

*Applause for lefthetrain* I don't agree on Ariel (well, just a bit, perhaps), but you gave Laura a needed reality check (no offense to her).

I don't think Elsa is selfish. She's anything but. She desperately wanted others to be safe from her powers, so she was always thinking about the well-being of her people.
I don't see Ariel as too selfish, but in comparison to Elsa, Ariel seems less concerned about others.

I may need to write this again: ELSA DIDN'T KNOW THAT ARENDELLE WAS FROZEN. WHEN ANNA TOLD HER SHE CARED. How can you say she didn't care that she froze Arendelle? She just wanted to be free. Just because she said she doesn't care what people say about her anymore does mean she is selfish. She is just doing what she wants without being pressured to be perfect and hide her powers from other.
I honestly don't know where do people here get those ideas about Elsa that she didn't care that she froze Arendelle.
Elsa may not be the most selfless princess here but she isn't selfish at all.

Again and again, arguing Elsa is selfish or not. Stop it! You see her as a selfish Queen mostly because of her Let It Go, right? Remember that the phenomenal song is an ex-villain song, so there is still a villainy touch in it. Also she never apologised cause she's always right (in her own way). Remember, when she said 'You can't marry a man you've just met' to Anna and it's true that Hans is a bad guy. So, it's very simple, duh! Elsa is NOT SELFISH, she's a misunderstood MARY SUE!!! And you can't 'accuse' her for being a selfish Mary Sue, because there is no such thing!

It is obviously clear that one of Ariel's biggest flaws is her selfishness. Selfish is a very common flaw in people and I always love reformed characters, that's why my top 3 are all selfish DP.

^Why, in your opinion, is Elsa a Mary-Sue? She has plenty of flaws (blunt, shuts people out, overprotective, prickly, irrational, etc)? And we are allowed to debate over the characters.

It's not a fact that Elsa is selfish or not. It's just a matter of opinion.

just....by far

Neither

@Gus, why is Elsa a Mary Sue? Just think! Her characterisation fits a lot to how a character could be a Mary Sue description.

A Sue characteristics that fit Elsa (source AudreyFreak):

- Exceptionally popular/gets lots of attention, even if the Sue is *supposed* to be shy, anti-social, or socially awkward. People are drawn to her, her advice is great, and she’s trusted fairly quickly.

- Only people who challenge or dislike the Sue are portrayed as mean, stupid, or villainous (and usually get a comeuppance).

- Has no real flaws, or ones that are meant to be endearing and relatable (popular ones are clumsiness, temper, awkward, and stubbornness) that are justified by the author or not even intentionally written. These ‘flaws’ will ONLY help her, never hurt her because she’s always right. (For example, she’s rightfully stubborn against something bad or she loses her temper on someone who deserves it.)

- She doesn’t have to suffer consequences for selfish, bad, or reckless behavior.

- Exceptionally beautiful, often with exotic traits like unusual coloring meant to make her stand out physically.

- Magical abilities/traits like wings, healing factor, immortality, etc.

- Is a Woobie (has a tragic past or crappy life) but is still perfect/likable despite what happened.

- Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. The Sue might be bad at things the author considers stupid (girly things like sewing, fashion, etc. but good at “boyish” stuff or things outside the norm like fighting, reading, or weapons are common). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (like being a scholar or warrior when you're a medieval peasant, for example).

- Usually or always get their way even when she’s actually in the wrong. Never gets called out for being wrong, but if they do, the person calling them out is portrayed as a jerk (see above). If she does do something wrong, she’s remorseful and is instantly forgiven.

- Good fashion sense, even if she’s meant to be a rough-and-tumble type or one who doesn’t care about clothes and is effortlessly attractive.

- Is a Special Snowflake who “isn’t like the other girls”. Something unique, physically or personality-wise, sets her apart from everyone else.

- Summed up, the Mary Sue is meant to stand out from everyone else in a good way and is generally portrayed as the ideal character/role model, very cool and universally relatable, usually. Anyone who dislikes the Sue is the one portrayed as in the wrong.

So, what d'ya say? :3

One more thing, according to the true fans of Elsa, Elsa shuts Anna out in order to protect her. How sweet, isn't she? Also, being a flawed character does not equal a Mary Sue Free ;)

- Exceptionally popular/gets lots of attention, even if the Sue is *supposed* to be shy, anti-social, or socially awkward. People are drawn to her, her advice is great, and she’s trusted fairly quickly.

The only reason she is "popular" is because A) she is the queen, B) because people think she's a monster since she has ice powers (what a great reason to be popular, no?). Not sure where it shows that her advice is great or where she is trusted quickly.

- Only people who challenge or dislike the Sue are portrayed as mean, stupid, or villainous (and usually get a comeuppance).

Anna, the foreigner dignitaries and the townspeople of Arendelle challenge Elsa. They aren't portrayed as villainous (except for the Duke and the Hans, for different reasons).

- Has no real flaws, or ones that are meant to be endearing and relatable (popular ones are clumsiness, temper, awkward, and stubbornness) that are justified by the author or not even intentionally written. These ‘flaws’ will ONLY help her, never hurt her because she’s always right. (For example, she’s rightfully stubborn against something bad or she loses her temper on someone who deserves it.)

Elsa is blunt, avoids her problems, illogical, self-hating, anti-social, etc. These flaws never help Elsa.

- She doesn’t have to suffer consequences for selfish, bad, or reckless behavior.

I've already covered this subject in this same poll. Just look at my previous comments.

- Exceptionally beautiful, often with exotic traits like unusual coloring meant to make her stand out physically.

All Disney Princesses are exceptionally beautiful. Elsa's coloring is not that unusual and it matches her ice powers - it's not like there is no reason for her cool, pale colors.

- Magical abilities/traits like wings, healing factor, immortality, etc.

Yes, she posesses cryokinesis. I don't see how that makes her a Sue... Especially when they mostly work against her.

- Is a Woobie (has a tragic past or crappy life) but is still perfect/likable despite what happened.
Self-hating, controlled by her fears, irrational, anti-social, anxious, depressive... If that is being "perfect" after a traumatic childhood for you, okay.

- Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. The Sue might be bad at things the author considers stupid (girly things like sewing, fashion, etc. but good at “boyish” stuff or things outside the norm like fighting, reading, or weapons are common). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (like being a scholar or warrior when you're a medieval peasant, for example).

Since when is Elsa shown as good at "boyish stuff" and bad at "girly" talents? Her only shown abillity is cryokinesis. In "A Sister More Like Me", it's revelead that she is, in fact, a proper lady, one who is studious, obedient, tidy, enjoys tea parties, etc.

- Good fashion sense, even if she’s meant to be a rough-and-tumble type or one who doesn’t care about clothes and is effortlessly attractive.

Again, I'll refer to "A Sister More Like Me": it's noted that Elsa pays special attention to the way she dresses, due to being a princess.

Something unique, physically or personality-wise, sets her apart from everyone else.

All DPs (and most protagonists) fit this bil. The only thing that makes Elsa a snowflake is, pun intended, her abillity to produce one.

- Summed up, the Mary Sue is meant to stand out from everyone else in a good way and is generally portrayed as the ideal character/role model, very cool and universally relatable, usually. Anyone who dislikes the Sue is the one portrayed as in the wrong.

Summed up, according to my view and analysis of her character, Elsa is not a Mary-Sue :)

Neither of them were selfish.

Ariel was impulsive and fiery but she wasn't selfish. She was manipulated in a very emotional state of mind. When my sister and I watched the scene of King Triton destroying her treasures, my sister wondered what if she went to her father and asked him to change her into a human. I liked the idea but told her no, because Triton wouldn't do it and Ariel was too upset to talk to him. While Ariel is a bit immature, she was not selfish.

Elsa wasn't selfish, either. She was controlled by fear and felt that nobody could be with her at all because of her ice powers. Even if some people wanted to be close to her like Anna.

LOL Gus, the italic words are, as the matter of fact, Mary Sue characteristics. I have to say that every character has, at least, a Sue characteristic but if she owns too many Sue characteristics, it makes her a Mary Sue.

- Exceptionally popular/gets lots of attention, even if the Sue is *supposed* to be shy, anti-social, or socially awkward. People are drawn to her, her advice is great, and she’s trusted fairly quickly.

The only reason she is "popular" is because A) she is the queen, B) because people think she's a monster since she has ice powers (what a great reason to be popular, no?). Not sure where it shows that her advice is great or where she is trusted quickly.

Yup, yup, yup! You've just pointed out the reasons why she is popular! *applause* It is never said that the reasons to be popular has to be a great one. Her advise is epic! 'You can't marry a man you've just met'. So true! ^_^ In the end, everyone in Arendelle trust and accept her as their one beloved Queen.[/i]

- Only people who challenge or dislike the Sue are portrayed as mean, stupid, or villainous (and usually get a comeuppance).

Anna, the foreigner dignitaries and the townspeople of Arendelle challenge Elsa. They aren't portrayed as villainous (except for the Duke and the Hans, for different reasons).

Duh! They are portrayed as stupid. The foreign dignitaries and the citizens of Arendelle are incited by the villainous Duke of Weselton. Hans? Not a even question.

- Has no real flaws, or ones that are meant to be endearing and relatable (popular ones are clumsiness, temper, awkward, and stubbornness) that are justified by the author or not even intentionally written. These ‘flaws’ will ONLY help her, never hurt her because she’s always right. (For example, she’s rightfully stubborn against something bad or she loses her temper on someone who deserves it.)

Elsa is blunt, avoids her problems, illogical, self-hating, anti-social, etc. These flaws never help Elsa.

Well, it is Anna's fault that Arendelle was Frozen, it is Anna's fault that her head and heart were struck, it is her parents and Anna's fault that she grown to be an insecure, self-hating, anti-social, and fearful person, it is bla bla bla's fault that bla bla bla. But NO Elsa's fault. I don't find being illogical is a fault though it is bad.

- She doesn’t have to suffer consequences for selfish, bad, or reckless behavior.

I've already covered this subject in this same poll. Just look at my previous comments.

So, did she suffer any consequences? No! She is 'bad' for sending Marshmallow. She could have killed her own sister with him. She is 'reckless' for striking Anna in the heart with her power and yet everything's fine! Oh yeah, she doesn't need to apologise to Anna since it is Anna's own fault that her heart was frozen.

- Exceptionally beautiful, often with exotic traits like unusual coloring meant to make her stand out physically.

All Disney Princesses are exceptionally beautiful. Elsa's coloring is not that unusual and it matches her ice powers - it's not like there is no reason for her cool, pale colors.

I never said that other DP doesn't have this trait. Let me count which DP has ever called exceptionally beautiful in her movie. Hm... Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Pocahontas, and lo! Elsa is one of them. Elsa's colours are definitely unusual. Have you ever seen other characters in Frozen wearing such striking colourful make-ups and stands-out blue coloured gown? So what if the fact that those colours match her ice power? It doesn't make the colours less unique, right?

- Magical abilities/traits like wings, healing factor, immortality, etc.

Yes, she posesses cryokinesis. I don't see how that makes her a Sue... Especially when they mostly work against her.

Well, her cryokinesis and tut, tut, tut! the ability to create living thing is a curse yet blessing, just like Edward Cullen from Twilight. He always thinks that his blessing makes him a monster, same as Elsa. And... Edward is a male type of Mary Sue or so we called Larry/Gary Stu.

- Is a Woobie (has a tragic past or crappy life) but is still perfect/likable despite what happened.

Self-hating, controlled by her fears, irrational, anti-social, anxious, depressive... If that is being "perfect" after a traumatic childhood for you, okay.

Ah, you got me wrong. I never said that after having a trauma makes a character perfect. On the other hand, even after having a traumatic past, she is still perfect. LOL, do you love the fact that she is a Woobie? ^^

- Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. The Sue might be bad at things the author considers stupid (girly things like sewing, fashion, etc. but good at “boyish” stuff or things outside the norm like fighting, reading, or weapons are common). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (like being a scholar or warrior when you're a medieval peasant, for example).

Since when is Elsa shown as good at "boyish stuff" and bad at "girly" talents? Her only shown abillity is cryokinesis. In "A Sister More Like Me", it's revelead that she is, in fact, a proper lady, one who is studious, obedient, tidy, enjoys tea parties, etc.

Whoa, hold on, it's just an example. To make you clear: Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. Elsa might be bad at things the author considers stupid (love at the first sight, dancing, etc. but good at creating icy stuff or things outside the norm). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (of course, she's the only who has the talent in the movie.)

- Good fashion sense, even if she’s meant to be a rough-and-tumble type or one who doesn’t care about clothes and is effortlessly attractive.

Again, I'll refer to "A Sister More Like Me": it's noted that Elsa pays special attention to the way she dresses, due to being a princess.

Due to being a princess doesn't give an excuse of being good in fashion sense, it has no relation. It is a matter of personal taste in dressing. In the movie, it is clearly shown that she is. Anna adores her Snow Queen appearance even though she's already let go her Arendelle royalty style.

- Something unique, physically or personality-wise, sets her apart from everyone else.

All DPs (and most protagonists) fit this bil. The only thing that makes Elsa a snowflake is, pun intended, her abillity to produce one.

Like I've said every character has at least a Sue character. But in this case again, Elsa is explicitly shown as a snowflake in ability and physically. She is the only one who wears 21st century style gown and unique hairstyle/make-ups amongst the traditional-styled outfited characters in Frozen, including Anna.

- Summed up, the Mary Sue is meant to stand out from everyone else in a good way and is generally portrayed as the ideal character/role model, very cool and universally relatable, usually. Anyone who dislikes the Sue is the one portrayed as in the wrong.

Summed up, according to my view and analysis of her character, Elsa is not a Mary-Sue :)

Let's see! Elsa IS the one who stands out in her movie, even though she is not the protagonist, and IS an ideal character/role model, very cool, and universally relatable. I, very truly really absolutely often, see people say such things to Elsa. And see again! You've just did it! I do not like Elsa and you are contradicting my opinion toward her by keep saying it is wrong. :)

- Exceptionally popular/gets lots of attention, even if the Sue is *supposed* to be shy, anti-social, or socially awkward. People are drawn to her, her advice is great, and she’s trusted fairly quickly.

The only reason she is "popular" is because A) she is the queen, B) because people think she's a monster since she has ice powers (what a great reason to be popular, no?). Not sure where it shows that her advice is great or where she is trusted quickly.

Yup, yup, yup! You've just pointed out the reasons why she is popular! *applause* It is never said that the reasons to be popular has to be a great one. Her advise is epic! 'You can't marry a man you've just met'. So true! ^_^ In the end, everyone in Arendelle trust and accept her as their one beloved Queen.[/i]

But she is only popular until people learn that she has ice powers. After that, she is shunned until the end. And her advice isn't that good... Yes, Hans was tricking Anna, but Elsa was wrong: in the Frozen universe, love can happen in a short span of time. Just look at Kristoff and Anna! Yes, supposedly in the end everyone accepts Elsa because she has proved she isn't a monster and that she can control her powers.

- Only people who challenge or dislike the Sue are portrayed as mean, stupid, or villainous (and usually get a comeuppance).

Anna, the foreigner dignitaries and the townspeople of Arendelle challenge Elsa. They aren't portrayed as villainous (except for the Duke and the Hans, for different reasons).

Duh! They are portrayed as stupid. The foreign dignitaries and the citizens of Arendelle are incited by the villainous Duke of Weselton. Hans? Not a even question.

They aren't portrayed as stupid. Naïve? Yes. But the movie never dems them stupid. It's up to the viewer to decide. And the Duke of Weselton don't really incite anything. We don't see him holding a torch and summoning a mob. When Elsa accidentally hits him with ice, the townfolk grow even more afraid, but he didn't plan that. Hans is the villain, of course, but he keeps his identity hidden for most of the movie. It's not until the very end he has the chance to incite anything.

- Has no real flaws, or ones that are meant to be endearing and relatable (popular ones are clumsiness, temper, awkward, and stubbornness) that are justified by the author or not even intentionally written. These ‘flaws’ will ONLY help her, never hurt her because she’s always right. (For example, she’s rightfully stubborn against something bad or she loses her temper on someone who deserves it.)

Elsa is blunt, avoids her problems, illogical, self-hating, anti-social, etc. These flaws never help Elsa.

Well, it is Anna's fault that Arendelle was Frozen, it is Anna's fault that her head and heart were struck, it is her parents and Anna's fault that she grown to be an insecure, self-hating, anti-social, and fearful person, it is bla bla bla's fault that bla bla bla. But NO Elsa's fault. I don't find being illogical is a fault though it is bad.

It's not Anna's fault: it's their parents' fault. And that doesn't change the fact that these are flaws. Every flaw ever is the result of circumstances. You aren't born with one. And being illogical is definitely a fault in my book.

- She doesn’t have to suffer consequences for selfish, bad, or reckless behavior.

I've already covered this subject in this same poll. Just look at my previous comments.

So, did she suffer any consequences? No! She is 'bad' for sending Marshmallow. She could have killed her own sister with him. She is 'reckless' for striking Anna in the heart with her power and yet everything's fine! Oh yeah, she doesn't need to apologise to Anna since it is Anna's own fault that her heart was frozen.

Please, this is a Disney Princess movie: of course everything is fine in the end. Merida turned her mother into a bear, Tiana and Naveen got themselves turned into frogs, the Beast was transformed into a, well, beast. All these had happy endings despite their mistakes. And she didn't apologize to Anna because she didn't have to, honestly: like I said, it was an accident. She didn't outright strike her.

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- Exceptionally beautiful, often with exotic traits like unusual coloring meant to make her stand out physically.

All Disney Princesses are exceptionally beautiful. Elsa's coloring is not that unusual and it matches her ice powers - it's not like there is no reason for her cool, pale colors.

I never said that other DP doesn't have this trait. Let me count which DP has ever called exceptionally beautiful in her movie. Hm... Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, Jasmine, Pocahontas, and lo! Elsa is one of them. Elsa's colours are definitely unusual. Have you ever seen other characters in Frozen wearing such striking colourful make-ups and stands-out blue coloured gown? So what if the fact that those colours match her ice power? It doesn't make the colours less unique, right?

All DPs are supposed to be incredibly beautiful, even if it isn't mentioned on screen. I'm quite sure a few of the cameo guests at party wore makeup. And Elsa's dress is blue because it is made of ice. I still don't see how her coloring makes her a Mary-Sue, since they aren't just thrown in there without a reason.

-Magical abilities/traits like wings, healing factor, immortality, etc.

Yes, she posesses cryokinesis. I don't see how that makes her a Sue... Especially when they mostly work against her.

Well, her cryokinesis and tut, tut, tut! the ability to create living thing is a curse yet blessing, just like Edward Cullen from Twilight. He always thinks that his blessing makes him a monster, same as Elsa. And... Edward is a male type of Mary Sue or so we called Larry/Gary Stu.

So? How does having ice powers and the abillity to embed life into her element make her a Sue? So what if she thinks she is a monster? Once again, I disagree with this point.

- Is a Woobie (has a tragic past or crappy life) but is still perfect/likable despite what happened.

Self-hating, controlled by her fears, irrational, anti-social, anxious, depressive... If that is being "perfect" after a traumatic childhood for you, okay.

Ah, you got me wrong. I never said that after having a trauma makes a character perfect. On the other hand, even after having a traumatic past, she is still perfect. LOL, do you love the fact that she is a Woobie? ^^

No, I didn't get you wrong. I gave examples of why Elsa isn't perfect after a traumatic past. And no, I don't, because I don't think she is one. LOL ^^

- Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. The Sue might be bad at things the author considers stupid (girly things like sewing, fashion, etc. but good at “boyish” stuff or things outside the norm like fighting, reading, or weapons are common). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (like being a scholar or warrior when you're a medieval peasant, for example).

Since when is Elsa shown as good at "boyish stuff" and bad at "girly" talents? Her only shown abillity is cryokinesis. In "A Sister More Like Me", it's revelead that she is, in fact, a proper lady, one who is studious, obedient, tidy, enjoys tea parties, etc.

Whoa, hold on, it's just an example. To make you clear: Exceptionally talented or good at things the author deems good. Elsa might be bad at things the author considers stupid (love at the first sight, dancing, etc. but good at creating icy stuff or things outside the norm). Even if the talent/skill isn’t realistic for the time period (of course, she's the only who has the talent in the movie.)

1) You can't exactly be good at love at first sight. It's more of an emotion than an abillity.
2) Obviously she isn't good at dancing (or so she says). She never got out of her room. Not much space to dance, had she?
3) Please, don't bring "historical accuracy" arguments into Disney movies. They aren't supposed to be realistic.
4) Yes, she's the only known character in the movie with that talent. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been much of a story, because it would have been considered normal. So...?

- Good fashion sense, even if she’s meant to be a rough-and-tumble type or one who doesn’t care about clothes and is effortlessly attractive.

Again, I'll refer to "A Sister More Like Me": it's noted that Elsa pays special attention to the way she dresses, due to being a princess.

Due to being a princess doesn't give an excuse of being good in fashion sense, it has no relation. It is a matter of personal taste in dressing. In the movie, it is clearly shown that she is. Anna adores her Snow Queen appearance even though she's already let go her Arendelle royalty style.

Being a princess does give an excuse to have good fashion-sense: if she had to pay attention to dress code for all her life, most likely she developed some good taste. Her ice dress is very "royal inspired". And it's very likely she is interested in fashion. Elsa is no "rough" type.

- Something unique, physically or personality-wise, sets her apart from everyone else.

All DPs (and most protagonists) fit this bil. The only thing that makes Elsa a snowflake is, pun intended, her abillity to produce one.

Like I've said every character has at least a Sue character. But in this case again, Elsa is explicitly shown as a snowflake in ability and physically. She is the only one who wears 21st century style gown and unique hairstyle/make-ups amongst the traditional-styled outfited characters in Frozen, including Anna.

I don't see how this makes her a Sue. So...

- Summed up, the Mary Sue is meant to stand out from everyone else in a good way and is generally portrayed as the ideal character/role model, very cool and universally relatable, usually. Anyone who dislikes the Sue is the one portrayed as in the wrong.

Summed up, according to my view and analysis of her character, Elsa is not a Mary-Sue :)

Let's see! Elsa IS the one who stands out in her movie, even though she is not the protagonist, and IS an ideal character/role model, very cool, and universally relatable. I, very truly really absolutely often, see people say such things to Elsa. And see again! You've just did it! I do not like Elsa and you are contradicting my opinion toward her by keep saying it is wrong. :)

Since when am I contradicting your opinion? Where did I say you're wrong? Puh-lease, point it out whatever innocent words your fertile imagination made up to be a sign of disdain.

Also, excuse me if this is poorly worded. I'm in a tablet and exhausted from a Math test.

Judging from your responses, I find out that you do not understand quite perfectly what a Mary Sue character is like. So this whole argument is pointless. No matter how hard I try to give you the reasons, you won't accept it. My suggestion is that you read more about Mary Sue character examples then we can continue this debate. My point of this argument is to see whether you can change my point of view Elsa being a Mary Sue or not. You need to have strong, sensible, relevant responses.

One more thing, do not think that you must NOT love a Mary Sue. Mary Sue characters are often loved by lots of people in this Earth. Even I love some of Mary Sue characters and I don't think that's bad. I accept that she's a Mary Sue (if you want to know one or two of the examples, I give you Belle and Rapunzel). Just like what Baymax have said to Hiro, 'It is alright to love a Mary Sue character'. ^^

I mean no offense, but please, Gus, don't be in the list of those offensive, easily provoked of Elsa's fans. Also I don't mind with your poorly worded especially when you've already told me the reasons. :)

About Mary Sues, it is mostly about how the author portrays the character. Read MarySueProblems' review of "Gamer Girl" (which was hilarious btw). The heroine Maddy acts like a brat and rarely stops thinking of herself first but the author clearly doesn't intend for these things to be seen as negative and wants you to think Maddy is a bad-a for being rebellious and different. I'm not sure I would call Elsa a full fledged Sue but I do think the movie idealizes her a lot. The movie doesn't portray her lecture to Anna as wrong, but right. Her self-hatred makes the audience sympathize with her. She isn't really portrayed as illogical either, but I think they wanted her to come off as a smart, strong, independent woman like all the DPs are supposed to be now. Simply having flaws doesn't keep a character from being a Sue. For example (and please forgive me for using Twilight as an example which I HATE DOING), everyone and their mom calls Bella Swan a Sue yet she is selfish, thinks she's too good for female friends, hates girly stuff and is obsessive. So by this logic, she wouldn't be a Sue. BUT the author portrays everything she does as good and never acknowledges these as flaws, same with Maddy and Elsa. But that said, I don't think she's as big a Sue as some of the others.

And I may have not explained Sue traits very well in those old polls I did. It's hard to explain in detail what a MS is, especially since the term has become overly used and changes a lot, but the summed up version is that the author wants what the character does to be seen as the right thing to do and they're overly idealized.

and all that said, this is getting a little OT ;)

Definitely. She only think about herself and her happiness, she left home without think her father's feelings. Though it's because how immature she is.

Elsa seriously? I don't see the point that shown Elsa is selfish. She's pretty selfless to lock herself in the room, stay away from her parents and Anna, to not hurt them with her uncontrolled powers.

Lol I'm seriously laughed when read comments from 8804.

If we're talking about selfishness, it all boils down to motives - Ariel's main goal is to become a human for her own personal benefit and to satisfy her own curiosity; it's not something she does for anyone else.

Elsa's actions are irrational and fear-driven, but they're mostly done out of concern for her sister and the people of Arendelle.

About Mary Sues, the important thing you're leaving out is that they eat up a ton of screentime that they shouldn't - Esmeralda in Hunchback is a Mary Sue not just because she can kick ass and snark and seduce her way through everything, but also because there isn't a storyline in the movie where someone isn't totally hung up on trying to get with her. In a way the movie is more about her than it is about the title character. So I don't think Elsa's a full-blown Sue, she's just idealized the same way all the other DPs are.

Still what I think.

i'll never move past elsa sending a giant snow monster that almost kills her sister. like elsa is so consumed by her own anxiety she just doesn't care what happens to anyone else.

^yeah, I don't think she's otherwise cruel at all but like.... wow. That and not bothering to help or ask if your injured sister is ok when you shoot her in the heart with ice magic and the lyrics to Let It Go. Just because the movie paints her as self sacrificing to a fault doesn't mean it's true or that she has no selfish moments.

Ariel is more self absorbed I think. She doesn't value her life above others'; she just doesn't take other people's feelings into consideration. Whereas Elsa knew what she was doing when she let a monster chase Anna.

Neither